There's talk of a small Caddy

"BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather" (bugeyedacura)
08/17/2014 at 22:15 • Filed to: None

Would it be the worst thing in the world to end up with a Cadillac styled one of these? Would it be any better if it came standard with AWD, and came with the choices of a high-output 1.4T or 2.0T in V trim?

DISCUSSION (46)

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:18

That is a terrible Idea. Remember the last small cheap Cadi?

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/upl…

CB > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:18

No. It would not be any better. Odds are it would be based on an Opel.

A Buick. What they're planning sounds like a Buick.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:19

Yes. The sonic, while an improvement over the aveo (and even the cobalt....) is still 100% basic transportation first and foremost. It can wear many hats, but it can't wear a pricetag much higher than 25k or so. With options. How much engineering and how much work and how much raw material would be needed to bulk up that platform to a level of refinement that is near the ATS?

Gamma II won't work for a luxury car in America. But the delta platform? The cruze/verano underpinnings? That could work. It would take a bit of development work but not nearly as much as Gamma. Especially if you found a way to sneak magnetic ride onto the thing, it could be cadillac's FWD entry offering. But only if the ATS does well.

heliochrome85 > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:19

I suspect the car will be a variant of the Buick Verano.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:19

The small Caddy is the ELR.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles
08/17/2014 at 22:21

I get that. But that one was based on the Cavalier, which was a crap car to begin with. The Sonic constantly comes out near the top of all of its comparisons. With some legitimate work, it could be a pretty decent competitor.

GhostZ > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:22

The ELR is based on the volt, which isn't much bigger than the Sonic Sedan.

But yes, it would be the worst thing in the world. Unlike the ATS and CTS, the Sonic is not a particularly quiet, tight, or variable frame. If they do that, it won't be a hybrid (can't fit volt drivetrain in there) and the most powerful possible engine they can give it is the 1.6l turbo at around 189HP. Sure, it would almost be double the output of a base sonic, but I've driven a Sonic RS and it is a mournful car. I can't imagine a cadillac being any better, though the interior wouldn't feel so cheap. It doesn't even have disc brakes all around.

I mean, seriously. Who would pay $25,000 for a cadillac-based sonic when you can get a Chrysler 200 with twice the power and AWD?

carcrasher88 > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:24

That's a Catera, not a Cimarron. The Catera was a rebadged Opel Omega, although it was equally bad.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:24

Even I'm against this.

Make it on the Cruze/Verano platform, make it AWD, and sell it as an A3/S3 competitor.

Jayhawk Jake > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:25

Eh. The Buick Enclave is basically the luxury Sonic.

I don't want a small Caddy. It would either be insanely overpriced or so cheap it'll cheapen the whole brand.

PS9 > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles
08/17/2014 at 22:26

That was terrible because the base car was terrible, and because they did little else beyond adding the badge, leather, and a different name to the car.

Caddy today is different, and so are small cars from GM. The Sonic is not the reincarnation of that era's cavalier. A rebadge wouldn't cut it, but a car from caddy on this platform today would be significantly more than a rebadge.

SonorousSpeedJoe > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:26

I don't think it'd work - it's too small, at least for the States.

I have been thinking that Cadillac should've tried to position the ELR as a competitor to the CLA and i3, given that the ELR is Cruze-based and is a PHEV.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > carcrasher88
08/17/2014 at 22:29

A lot of people forget that the Catera wasn't bad for its time. I stand behind that car.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Jayhawk Jake
08/17/2014 at 22:29

*Encore

GhostZ > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles
08/17/2014 at 22:30

But it's the caddy that zigs!

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
08/17/2014 at 22:30

The Cruze platform is too heavy. The Verano Turbo is already over 3500 lbs.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > GhostZ
08/17/2014 at 22:33

A couple of things:

-The Sonic RS DOES have discs all around. In fact, its the only one, but it does have them.

- The 200 with the V6 and AWD is over 30k. The only one you can get for 25k is a FWD 2.4.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
08/17/2014 at 22:34

Too heavy. The Cruze is already 3200-3300 lbs, and the Verano Turbo is 3500 lbs, same as the ATS.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > heliochrome85
08/17/2014 at 22:34

Too heavy. The Verano Turbo is already 3500lbs+.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:36

Well Gamma II isn't suited for luxury applications, so they're gonna have to make their own platform.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles
08/17/2014 at 22:37

You only found the mildly terrible cheap Caddy. What about the extremely terrible cheap Caddy?

Jayhawk Jake > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
08/17/2014 at 22:39

Right. That. The cute one.

MultiplaOrgasms > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles
08/17/2014 at 22:39

This was the original CTS. Without the TS.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:40

When has weight ever mattered for a luxury car? And I never said it could do the job as-is, there'd need to be development work. Or maybe use fiberglass for panels or something.

Jayhawk Jake > GhostZ
08/17/2014 at 22:42

The RS has discs all around, and the interior is a step closer to not being cheap with the seats it has. Better plastics and some extra upholstery on doors would go a long way.

I agree though, Sonic based would be a bad way to go. Cruze/Verano might not be bad, but with the Verano a Cadillac version would just be redundant I think.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
08/17/2014 at 22:43

J-Body and Cadillac, two things that should've never been associated.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:43

Stop saying this. The BMW 1-series weighs 3500lbs in hatchback form. The CLA weighs 3300. That number means shit.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:45

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/03/12/201…

3300* lbs. Granted, the ILX weighs in the high 2900s using their standards of measurement (probably dry) but the ILX is also poorly received by critics while the verano gets a tentative approval.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
08/17/2014 at 22:45

And now, unfortunately, two things that will forever be associated. With failure.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
08/17/2014 at 22:48

That's still too heavy. The ATS is 3400-3500 lbs, so there would be no reason for the smaller car.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
08/17/2014 at 22:50

I just don't get why you have problems with the Sonic. For the RS, the only real complaints are the lack of power. From a stats standpoint, the only platform change it would need to compete on paper would be independent rear:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews/ro…

King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:51

Based on the competition in the entry level luxury market, this is a necessity.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 22:54

Again, go back a step - why does the weight matter? Do you honestly think someone shopping for a luxury car is going to say "Oh this car handles like I want it to, has the features I want, does exactly what I want at this price but it's just 100 lbs overweight so I can't buy it!"

Let's look at the competition. The CLA weighs about as much as a C-class. The outgoing 1 series weighed only 100lbs less than the 3-series with similar engines. I think only Audi has a major weight gain from A4 to A6 but the A4? 3700 lbs.

So please, tell me some more about 3500lbs is "too heavy" in this segment?

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
08/17/2014 at 22:59

Well considering the current Verano weighing in at 3300 lbs. Adding AWD and the additional luxury and powertrain bits would push it up even higher. Its not going to be competitive because WEIGHT AFFECTS EVERYTHING. There's no way its going yo be dynamic enough, fuel efficient enough, or fast enough for the modern A3 and CLA drivers at that weight.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 23:01

Different standards. The sonic, the fiesta, the fit, the yaris, and the rest have yet to be used to underpin a luxury car in America because they are focused on basic transportation first. They might be very good at their job, but that doesn't make it a luxury car. Remember how the phaeton failed? It wasn't that it was a bad luxury car, but it was an expensive volkswagen that was expensive to run. So people had different expectations for it. It's part of the uphill battle hyundai/kia have for their own luxury cars and why infiniti/lexus/acura were made in the first place. What is "excellent ride quality" in the subcompact category is "appallingly awful" in entry level luxury. I love my FiST but if it was, say, gussied up to a 40k performance sedan/hatch like the S3 or CLA AMG? It'd be awful. The interior panel gaps are quite good for its price and segment however it would NOT be okay as a luxury car. Same with the various little noises and annoyances that I ignore because I accept I paid well under 25k for mine.

That's the key here - the price of engineering out those issues on a paltform that was basically destined from day one to have them is so high that you might as well use something else. I worked for an automotive leather supplier and that was one of toyota's tricks to making lexus such a profitable brand. The leather they used for both the toyotas and the lexus models was the same....but the *foam* they used for the seats and how the seats were mounted were changed. The leather was quite expensive and making it even more "supple" or just a higher quality would be too high. So rather than try and make a cheap seat feel luxurious by covering it in expensive material, they just made it a better seat from the get go.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 23:05

Stop putting the cart before the horse. Maybe GM used cheap materials that are heavy in the verano. Maybe the engineers cut those corners in developing the interior. There are a million possible sources for that number that is a result of decisions, not a decision in and of itself. Not in the entry segment anyways. But no, it is not too heavy. That makes zero sense outside of talking as a sports car. And maybe cadillac doesn't want another "sports car". Maybe they want a small cruiser? Maybe the ATS and CTS can be their "sports sedans" while the XTS and a smaller version carry on the "traditional" mantle of cushy ride and ease of use?

heliochrome85 > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 23:08

the 2 series is the same weight as the 3 series.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
08/17/2014 at 23:11

I think the small cruiser idea is all kinds of terrible. That would effectively do two things:

Cannibalize the Verano, and

Validate all of the Caddy haters who still think its the 80s.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 23:14

It could very well cannibalize the verano. That is the problem with releasing anything in Buick's price range. But given the success of the encore, and the possibility to make *more* money off that idea by putting a cadillac badge on it? It could make sense to kill the verano, leave the small CUV with buick, and have cadillac pick up that model.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 23:14

I'm going to make this its own thread. You want to know why I *know*, not think, but *know* the Delta platform (cruze/verano) would be cadillac's platform of choice for a luxury vehicle over Gamma? Because they already used it, BITCH! The ELR!

http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/al…

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, the ELR is overpriced and late to the party. But those who have driven it have complemented it for being a very nice luxury vehicle. And the faults in the car are based on it having the same powertrain as the volt. So parrot your little "curb weight" line all you want, but if nothing else, don't forget that cadillac already uses it. I have no doubt they'd like another go at it. And to bring back something else I said - I am dead serious when I say Cadillac might want a softer riding compact sedan. Or perhaps......a softer riding coupe? Strip the batteries from the ELR, give it the turbo 2.0 and 6-speed auto, and magnetic shocks. BOOM! New GT coupe we can call the ETC.

*drops mic*

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
08/17/2014 at 23:31

Even if it's not about weight. The fact of the matter is if they were gonna do it, they'd done it already. And their marketing department has absolutely 0 spin room to say "our 30k sedan is on the same platform as our 70k halo car!"

It's never gonna happen, unless its a modified next-gen platform or some shit.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/17/2014 at 23:41

The 100k+ XLR was based on the 50k vette. The XTS is based on the impala. The Escalade is based on the Tahoe. None of those things matter to buyers of the brand.

If the car accomplishes the goals it needs to accomplish, the buyers won't care. Some of those goals are arbitrary. Like I mentioned before - the phaeton was never a bad car for the luxury class......but it was a bad VW. It made a great Audi. If they make a compact cadillac that checks the boxes and does what that buyer wants it to do, they won't care what it's based on or the curb weight or the engine family it's from, or anything else.

And for the record - I bet money the cadillac engineers are SCREAMING at GM to let them ditch the hybrid drivetrain. They turned a Delta platform sedan into one of the best looking coupes on the market. You have to imagine they read the reviews of the ELR that are summed up as "A great 30-35k car for 70k" and then burn some unsold volts in retaliation.

Dsscats > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/18/2014 at 03:20

May I direct your attention to our old friend the Catera?

liquid_popcorn > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/19/2014 at 11:01

Came here for a new small VW pickup, was disappointed.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > liquid_popcorn
08/19/2014 at 11:18

I wish. An MQB pickup would be something of splendor

liquid_popcorn > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather
08/19/2014 at 11:53

Damn straight.